Podcast: Is the violence in Nigeria driven by resources or religion?

Abi McDougal (00:01)

Is the violence ravaging Nigeria about resources or religion?

 

There’s been plenty of debate in the media the past six weeks over whether a person’s religion really affects whether they live or die in Nigeria and whether it might actually just be a classic conflict between farming groups and herding groups over land. But characterizing the situation as the result of simple competition over resources is a misdiagnosis

 

that misses how faith is a key driver behind the deadly violence.

 

My name is Abi and I’m your host here at the Christian Solidarity Podcast, where we stand as one with the body of Christ facing persecution around the world. At Christian Solidarity International, CSI, we partner with local Christian organizations to support religious freedom and human dignity for everyone.

 

In Nigeria, you’ll hear, Christians aren’t the only ones affected by the attacks, but they are at particularly great risk. And multiple different radical Islamist groups in Northern and Central Nigeria seem determined to wipe Christian communities out. In some places, researchers have estimated that Christians are nine times more likely to be killed than Muslims. For years now, CSI

 

and other advocates have been warning that the conditions are right for genocide.

 

We’re going to be talking about some stories that are extremely violent today because we think it’s important to understand the suffering that has been happening unchecked for years. Let’s jump in.

 

Abi McDougal (01:43)

Joining the podcast with us is Hassan John. Hassan, good to have you here.

 

Hassan John (01:48)

Thank you, it’s a pleasure to be here.

 

Abi McDougal (01:50)

Hassan is a partner of CSI who supports our project work in Nigeria and he is Nigerian himself, travels there regularly to talk directly with those currently affected. But where are you joining this call today from Hassan?

 

Hassan John (02:04)

I’m in Swindon, in England.

 

Abi McDougal (02:06)

Very nice. Yeah. With a global organization, there’s always a new country on the map where we can be calling on any given day, it seems. And I know your travels keep you busy. But there has been a lot about Nigeria in the news. In the month of November in the U.S. President Trump posted on social media about the deadly situation for Christians and announced that the U.S. would be putting Nigeria back on the CPC list. It’s the countries of particular

 

concern regarding religious freedom issues. And so there was a good bit of attention to those comments with both concern ⁓ for the issues that were brought up and then critical backlash against those claims. So here today, we want to cut through the political noise around this issue and learn a bit about what’s actually happening on the ground and dive more into those questions. And so thank you, Hassan, again, for being with us here today to help us make sense of that.

 

Hassan John (03:02)

a pleasure.

 

Abi McDougal (03:03)

So let’s cut straight to the heart of the question. What do you make of the claims that attacks on Christians in Nigeria are genocidal?

 

Hassan John (03:12)

I think one just needs to look at the records and the statistics that are on the ground because I think in the last, arguably I would say in the last 15 to 20 years, different Christian communities at one level or the other have suffered various levels of attacks. And these are from the once in a while beheading of Christians on the claims of blasphemy to attacks and destroying their property. And then,

 

when Boko Haram came into the scene. Actually, even just before Boko Haram, with the Maitatsine riots in 1987, I think there about, between ’82 and ’87, Nigeria went through challenges with radical Islamic groups. But with Boko Haram coming onto the scene, I think it just escalated. And since then, I would say 15 years down the line, so many groups have joined in these

 

attacks and concentrated attacks on Christian communities in Nigeria, from northeast with Boko Haram, in Borno, Yobe, Adamawa, Gombe and other states in the north east; then down in central Nigeria, in states like Plateau, Benue, Nasarawa, Adamawa, and so on.

 

Abi McDougal (04:25)

Yeah, yeah. And in our previous episode on Nigeria, Joel and I talked a bit about the geographic differences in the conflict And so if you want to listen to that episode to learn more, go back to episode three and get some of that context for what we’re talking about here today. ⁓ But so Hassan, can you

 

explain to us, in Northern Nigeria, what does a typical attack of the sort that you’re talking about look like?

 

Hassan John (04:54)

Well, I can tell you that I have been in these rural communities for so, many years. And these attacks have been very, very strategic and very well organized. And a good example would be, for instance, let me take Dogo Nahawa’s attack in March 2010, where three massive villages were attacked at the same time. And the attackers came in there, dozens surrounded these villages. And in three to four hours,

 

they left more than 500 people dead, destroyed all the three villages, and they came on motorbikes. And they all came in and dissolved into the night. Despite the hours they spent in attacking, they were able carry out that massacre and then just dissolve into the night. No arrest, no apprehension. And picture.

 

that whoever is involved in this is not just any random person who is aggrieved about one thing or the other. It must have taken a lot of logistical planning to execute that kind of an attack. So this is not just Dogo Nahawa for instance. It’s village after village after village. I have been to more than 150 of these villages. And you could actually even draw a pattern in the attacks. The style of the attacks

 

when you see the bodies in one village and you compare it to the bodies of another village, you see the similarities in the killings. Again, let me give you quick example. ⁓ Sorry to be morbid or very graphic about this, but in Dogo Nahawa for instance, most of those that were attacked were machetes and gunshots. And the machetes were at the back of the neck. And you could see

 

victim after victim after victim, how they were chopped in the back of their necks. And the thing you see consistently. Now, when you move to other areas like southern Kaduna, there’s mainly gunshots. The victims seem to be facing the attackers. Or if they were fleeing, then they were shot in the back.

 

So you see different patterns and different groups emerging in these attacks. And we’re talking about thousands of people that have been killed over this period.

 

Abi McDougal (07:04)

Right, yeah, and when you talk about those machete wounds to the back of the neck, those are the same thing that we’ve seen this year in the Middle Belt, is that right?

 

Hassan John (07:14)

That’s correct. Yeah.

 

Abi McDougal (07:16)

So for you, you mentioned 2010 this massive attack of 500 people being killed in just a matter of hours. Were you in Nigeria at that point? What was that like for you?

 

Hassan John (07:28)

yes, I have lived in Nigeria all this while and I have barely escaped some of these attacks myself because I’ve been, I mean, engulfing all these tragedies in the last 10 or 15 years. And so I’ve been to villages in Borno State from Chibok all the way down to Damboa, Maiduguri, and then coming down to Plateau State. I’ve been to villages in Bassa, Barkin Ladi, Riyom,

 

and even coming down to Kaduna state in Fadan Kagoma, Kafanchan, Kagoro — I can go on and on and name all these villages I’ve been to. And I have worked as a pastor in the communities and I’ve presided over so many mass burials. There’s hardly any of these villages I’ve been to that will not have a mass grave. So I’ve been involved in helping the victims.

 

Abi McDougal (08:17)

Hmm.

 

Hassan John (08:21)

working with the widows.

 

So it, I mean, you see all the horrible things, I that have been happening in these areas.

 

Abi McDougal (08:29)

And so with your role in ministry, how does that inform your work?

 

Hassan John (08:36)

I think for me it has given me ⁓ the experience of course, but the insight to see and understand what the suffering Christians are going through, to understand what the areas of trauma and pain that they suffer and to see how best they can be helped.

 

And like I did mention, I have worked as a pastor and my church, that’s Trinity Chapel in Jos, had been attacked twice. In fact, my other church, St. Christopher’s, was just near St. Finbarr’s when it was bombed by Boko Haram

 

So I would say I’ve lived through all these tragedies in Nigeria.

 

Abi McDougal (09:17)

Wow, yeah, yeah, that’s definitely sobering. you help us to get a picture of what it means for someone to live through this violence? You’ve shared a little bit of your own experience and the amount of danger that you’ve personally walked through. Are there stories from survivors that have stuck with you that you could share with us?

 

Hassan John (09:40)

So many, so many. ⁓ Yeah, Okay, let me just even pick, ⁓ let’s say Rose Matthew, whose husband is a pastor in Jos in Nigeria.

 

Abi McDougal (09:42)

Yeah.

 

Hassan John (09:53)

She’s a pregnant woman, two kids, the attackers came and this one became specifically for her husband, that is for the pastor, which is what we’ve seen again in another pattern of the killings, that churches are targeted and the pastors are targeted. So they came directly for her husband, say around 8 p.m.

 

Matthew, Togueda is his name, the late Reverend, and he was shot point blank and they just walked away. So I had to meet with this widow, ⁓ pastor’s wife. I mean, it’s difficult to what do you even say at this moment? How do you even

 

Abi McDougal (10:26)

Right.

 

Hassan John (10:27)

process that kind of thing. And then, like I said, I could move from one village to the other. I could give you, let’s say, Barkin Ladi for instance, one of the villages I went to. So the attack, when the report came, started around 3 AM. But I got in there at about 5 AM it was a long distance from where I lived. And I came, the sun was just rising, and I came into this village.

 

there were so many bodies all over the place. And I went into this room where I heard a young lady was crying and walked right into this room and I helped her to her feet and brought her out. Everybody in that room, I would say there were about seven bodies in that room, but we were able to help her get an immediate help to get her to the hospital. It was when I had left and I was heading home later that I saw that my shoes and my feet all to the…

 

the tip of my jeans were already soaked in blood because at that time I didn’t even know that it was that messy and that bloody in that room. And how do you even get home with that kind of blood in your body, you know, of people that have just been butchered? And that’s why when it is said it is genocidal,

 

It is not the narrative that you hear that the politically correct narrative that either the Nigerian government or many other people are saying, “Oh, it is not genocidal. It is just a clash between herders and farmers.”

 

How do you explain this as a clash between herders and farmers? For resources, for instance? These are villages that are far, far away from anywhere that you could even say Fulani cattle herders are even coming to graze. Now, what the, I’ll call them the apologists for the attackers and the Fulani militia groups are not saying,

 

they do not say that these villages, some of them are so remote from any other place and they are just so vulnerable that they become just targets. These are people that have little or no even relationship with this Fulani herders that get attacked, especially when you go to villages like for instance, in Riyom.

 

There are so many villages there that it’s such a wide space. And even if arguably there is the argument that, well, they are fighting for resources, the thing is this group of militias that are attacking these villages in central Nigeria, they are well armed. They are well equipped.

 

So there is a distinction between the Fulani’s who are peacefully herding their cattle and they are living peacefully with communities, not just in central Nigeria, but all over Northern Nigeria versus this militia group that I explained earlier on, because they have to be well trained to be able to get into these remote villages and carry out these atrocities for hours and hours. And by the way, let me quickly add also.

 

the Nigerian army cannot bring any group of people it had, let me say contained in these atrocities that have been happening over these years. But of course, it is also because there is complicity both

 

from the Nigerian government as so many documents are now coming out. And we’re hearing even from military officers and soldiers that are fighting of one claim or the other, allegations that we cannot prove. But these are all on the social media for anybody that cares to you know, to see what both the Nigerian army or soldiers are saying. But interestingly, interestingly recently also, even the Fulani attackers themselves are on TikTok.

 

They are on Facebook flaunting their loot, flaunting their weapons, and they are there. So when we, it’s very surprising that people come out to say it is not genocidal and it is a clash between farmers and herders when all the evidence is there on Facebook, on TikTok. Not because we say it, but because that is what the statistics are showing and this is what the truth is.

 

Abi McDougal (14:19)

Well.

 

Well, yeah.

 

It’s happening in plain sight. the question is, is the international community and the Nigerian government, are they willing to listen and to respond and to acknowledge what is happening and address it as such?

 

Hassan John (14:49)

Exactly.

 

I will argue that, you know, generally speaking, there is this avoidance by the international community when it comes to radical Islam, or anything Islamic, which is the fact of the matter here. Because we argue that the reasons behind this attack is not the so-called climate change economic resource fight that the world wants to project.

 

And they project that because it’s a politically correct narrative to put forward. Because in this regard, you do not name or mention radical Islam or Muslims that probably are part of this. But the case in Nigeria has shown clearly, has shown clearly that the sympathizers, the patrons, and the groups that are behind these tragedies come from a strain of an Islamic background.

 

And not again because we said; because those are what the documents and the statistics have proven. We have seen with the past Nigerian president, the late Buhari, who had deliberately and strategically worked

 

with the different militia groups. They call them bandits, but we call them militia groups. And we have also ample evidence and recordings online by the former Kaduna state governor, Nasir El-Rufai, that himself claimed that they were in touch with some of this group and they had paid them not to continue these attacks. So we’re talking about all these evidences and information and they are already in the public space.

 

Abi McDougal (16:37)

And as you’re talking about this, it’s not only horrific and gruesome violence, as you’re saying. It’s connected to an ideology, it’s connected to groups. And can you explain a little bit more about who these groups are and what they believe? The groups that are carrying out these attacks, the Fulani militias and others?

 

Hassan John (16:57)

That’s right. Now CSI has done a lot and publications about the challenges in Nigeria. But to quickly put it in context, you see there is the historical context, which, of course, goes back all the way to the Usman Dan Fodio Islamic jihadi campaign all the way to Nigeria’s independence and then

 

that had consistently been a factor, even if not so obvious, because Nigeria as a country has been founded on that divide, and there’s no shying away from that fact. So unless that is also brought into the discussion, a lot of people think that when we start talking about Christian persecution started in January 2015, or 2025.

 

or maybe it started with Boko Haram. No, it didn’t. There is a long historical chain of events. The second level also is, again, the persecution that has gone on and on, Christians generally have learned to just live with. These have been discriminations in government and in politics. Like I said from the beginning, the intermittent killing of Christians

 

especially in states like Kano, Kaduna, Zaria, Sokoto, you know, where once in a while a Christian is killed or people are denied access, Christians are not allowed to build churches, Christians cannot own shops in certain areas. And so we’ve lived with all that. We’ve learned to navigate these turbulent waters and to live peacefully until the violence, you know, came into this

 

I think we can say that Nigeria as a nation has a lot of questions. The US government is pushing in terms of asking the questions of the persecution of Christians, but even also other minority groups, and of course, Muslims that

 

do not adhere to those kind of radical ideologies of this sect. And now

 

Northern Nigeria lives in the phobia of the Southern Christians dominating the politics. And so every election,

 

had been this arrangement where

 

Christians and Muslims come together, they agree that it is a plural society with many religious beliefs. that didn’t happen in the last election.

 

Perhaps you would have seen it online when people are talking about the Muslim Muslim ticket,

 

So the struggle between Islam and Christianity in Nigeria is an old battle. But what we are focusing on now is that it has

 

gotten to a level or risen to a level where there is a strategic deliberate act of extermination that is going on. And so this is where the problem is.

 

Abi McDougal (19:50)

is really important to understand the ideologies behind it, the philosophies, the worldviews, and also just how systematic this really is. You obviously have continued your pastoral work and your advocacy in the midst of all these attacks. Can you tell us more about how Christians in Nigeria are responding to this kind of danger?

 

Hassan John (20:14)

so when it started, I mean, me, a pastor like any other Christian, we really didn’t understand what was going on. We just couldn’t understand where the violence was popping up from, especially when it came to the declaration by Abubakar Shekau, the leader then of Boko Haram, in I think it was in 2010, that he declared a jihad.

 

And his excuse at that time was that over the crisis of religious clashes that Jos had suffered in 2001, he claimed that Christians had attacked and killed Muslims. Of course, unfounded accusation. But he didn’t have to prove what why he was.

 

calling for that jihad because he was taken seriously and that added to the recruitment. And therefore in December 2010, there were the first twin bomb blasts in Jos. So that now escalated, but as Christians, we just didn’t know what was happening. We’ve never seen that kind of violence.

 

I think mostly Christians went into prayers and they were depending on the government to do something about it because all the argument was, well, it was the responsibility of the government to handle these issues. Citizens are not allowed to carry weapons in Nigeria. It was an illegal to even carry a gun. Actually, if you had a machete on the streets, the police could arrest you for carrying a machete.

 

So it was a major challenge for Christians to know what to do. But then it kept developing and it grew worse when the Fulani militia groups came into the equation. Now the Fulani, at least now the security organizations have admitted that the Fulani’s have had some kind of link with Boko Haram. And so…

 

When the Fulani’s came into the equation, they were armed and they now strategically targeting all those villages I mentioned earlier. Again, Christians didn’t know what to do. So prayers were held, fastings, general, how do I say now? There were these interfaith meetings in churches and mosques and there was hardly anything Christians didn’t do But as the killings progressed,

 

issue now is, for Christians, there is no theological standpoint on which Christians can either carry guns or attack Muslims or do anything, while jihadists, might find some areas in the Quran where they could quote, like Abubakar Shekau has done again and again,

 

for why he’s attacking Christians. Christians cannot at all quote the Bible to say this is why or how they should respond, apart from of course, many parts of the scripture that have asked them to love and to turn the other cheek and so many other things. But eventually, what some Christians did was to begin to pull away from the church because they saw that this was now an existential problem.

 

Abi McDougal (23:04)

Mm.

 

Hassan John (23:14)

and they felt they better come around their ethnic groups and defend their communities. Because as I speak to you now, close to 200 villages have been sat and taken over completely by the militia groups. And villagers who even attempt to go back to those villages are killed. So they can’t even go back. So it has become such an existential problem now that they’ve now organized themselves, and now with the help of the government, thankfully, to form vigilante groups.

 

But the problem here is even these vigilante groups can’t do anything against any attacking Fulani militia groups because the government only allows them to come together and to carry shotguns. Fulani militias come in their dozens.

 

In some cases, they come between 100 to 150, and all of them are carrying AK-47s, they are carrying the MGM magazine, that is anti-tank guns, and they are carrying RPGs, the rocket propelled grenade launchers. Now, what does a shotgun do against all these things?

 

So this is where the situation is now.

 

Abi McDougal (24:21)

Wow, yeah. Yeah, and as you’re talking about, you know, Christians facing that kind of existential threat and then moving away from their faith, it’s so humbling to hear the stories and at some level it’s more surprising to hear how many people do still hold to their faith even in that kind of extreme suffering and existential threat. Are there stories of bold faith in the middle of this that you can point to of

 

people suffering for the gospel and continuing to hold fast to the hope in Christ?

 

Hassan John (24:55)

Oh, yes. Oh, absolutely. There are dozens of this. In let me even start with Mrs. Mary Andimi. So Mrs. Mary Andimi, her husband was the Christian Association of Nigeria chairman in Adamawa State, and he was executed by Boko Haram and his video was posted, I think it was in January 2020 for the entire world to see his beheading. And Mary, the wife of Lawan Andimi has

 

consistently, you know, celebrated and thanked God that her husband, even in the hands of Boko Haram, who had forced him or wanted him to convert to Islam for his freedom, he didn’t. And she has held, you know, unto this faith, proudly serving the Lord and whatever it takes, encouraging Christians. I could also tell you the

 

a lot of widows, in central Nigeria, who themselves, despite the fact that they’ve lost property, they’ve lost family members, they’ve lost their husbands, they go from place to place, community to community, encouraging others, organizing fellowships, and indeed, you know, standing to speak, you know, of the Lord’s goodness.

 

for the fact that, they have seen God’s mercy and provision and protection even in this. Recently I just came back from Nigeria and the story of Keziah, whose husband was targeted and killed by the Fulani militia. But she said, I know that

 

Abi McDougal (26:20)

Yeah. ⁓

 

Hassan John (26:28)

my husband has been killed. However, I also know that there is a God who will take care of me and he will not abandon us. Churches, interestingly, even during the bombings in between 2010 and around 2016 in Nigeria,

 

soon after these attacks, you still find people every Sunday coming to church. I mean, the churches are just so packed full even with this.

 

Even when the churches have been burnt, but they still meet in those ruins and they pray and thank God that they are even worthy to be considered as those who’d suffer for their faith. So there are so many stories, so many stories.

 

Abi McDougal (27:06)

Well, yeah,

 

yeah.

 

Abi McDougal (27:13)

There’s something incredibly weighty to the faith of those that have had to wrestle with whether it’s even possible to honor God and keep their family safe at the same time. These are stories of pain and suffering that are brutally real and brutally heavy. And even still, there is deep hope in a God who doesn’t look past suffering, that enters directly into it with us and will not abandon us even in the fiercest grief.

 

There’s so much more to unpack here, so we’ll be continuing the conversation with Hassan in part two. Make sure you hit subscribe wherever you get your podcasts so you can hear the rest as soon as it’s out. I’m Abi McDougal and this is the Christian Solidarity Podcast.